The European Courier in cooperation with Foreign Policy Association presents:

GEORGIA vs. RUSSIA - May 21, 2008
 

- an interview with Amb. Irakli Alasania, Permanent Representative of Georgia to the United Nations in

New York City, about Abkhazia crisis, Georgia’s peace

initiatives, relations with Russia, NATO membership and

the political role of the U.S. in Caucasus.

* * *

Sebastian Aulich: Yesterday, Russian Foreign Minister

Sergei Lavrov accused Georgia of provocative behavior,

which prevents resolution of the crisis in Abkhazia through

constructive dialogue. How would you comment on that?

Amb. Irakli Alasania: Well, we heard a lot of accusations

from Russian side over the past two years, accusing us of

provocations and other behavior. But the main thing is that the source of provocation - what is obvious to international community - is the surge of the Russian peacekeepers, which was done unilaterally and was not coordinated with the UN and the Georgian side. They built up the military capabilities and, what happened a few days ago, they unceremoniously went into one of Georgia’s districts without coordinating it with the local Georgian authorities. However, I want to take look at a broader picture. Georgia has made the unification of the country its main goal and principle of the foreign policy and internal politics. For 14 years my country, mainly due to the conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, has been hampered in development. We aspire to become a viable member of the Euro-Atlantic community but without resolving these conflicts our goal cannot be achieved. We all understand it. That is precisely why Georgia’s President announced new initiatives, which were declared a month and a half ago and which envisioned very attractive suggestion to the Abkhaz side. This was, as well, the reason of my recent trip to Sukhumi, as a Special Representative of the President, where we discussed in detail what can be achieved through this plan in the nearest future. But the main purpose of my trip to Abkhazia and talks with Abkhaz, de facto, leaders was to find an answer to how to de-escalate the existing situation. This trip confirmed to me that it is in the best interest of the Abkhazs and the Georgians to de-escalate present situation. We want to find a commonly acceptable way out of this impasse, therefore we are negotiating and will continue negotiating after the elections are concluded in Georgia. I am pretty sure that there are no issues, which we cannot decide with the Abkhaz side. Of course we have some factors like Russia and other members of the group of friends, which is an informal group that tries to resolve this conflict through the UN-led process. We are ready, as it was declared by our President to see Russia as a mediator in this conflict. However as of today the condition of the de-escalation should be, with no doubt, the cutting down of the troops of Russian peacekeepers, which were sent to Abkhazia, as I mentioned, unilaterally and without coordination with the UN and Georgia. Another condition is the departure of the para-troopers, which presence created a great concern on the Georgian side because there is no need to have para-troopers unless you want to launch an offensive operation. These are the things, which we have been talking about with the Abkhaz side as well as with the Russian side. If you remember, a few days ago a State Minister for Re-integration was visiting Moscow. So there is a lot on the table and I believe that flexible diplomacy and reaching out to the Abkhazs and the Russians from the Georgia’s side is evident and that we want to have a solution to this current crisis.

SA: What happens if there is no diplomatic solution? We recently heard accusations that Georgia is acquiring more military equipment, for example tanks from Ukraine. Does it mean that your are building up your military capabilities because you consider war as an option?

IA: No, it means that we are building up our state, we are building up our military capabilities. As you know Georgia is not only a recipient of the security assistance but we are also providing security in various parts of the globe, for example in Iraq and Afghanistan. So we really need to have credible force on our side. By the way, the Georgian armed forces are the smallest armed forces in the Trans-Caucasus after Armenia and Azerbaijan. This is, again, propaganda of the Russian side. Yes, we have a lot better capabilities than we used to have. Georgia is becoming a viable state. This is exactly why we need these forces, to contribute more to European and Euro-Atlantic security. I would not say that there is any other option on the table than peace talks and a demonstration of that is the peace initiative that President Saakashvili has put forward.

SA: By 2006 more than 80% of the population of Abkhazia received Russian citizenship. Is it then a sort of Russian expansionism that Abkhazia wants to secede from Georgia and then integrate with Russia? What is the nature of this crisis?

IA: I think you put it very accurately. What we are witnessing now is annexation, no doubt about that. I always doubted that Russia would go as far as recognizing Abkhazia because it is not in its interest to recognize Abkhazia. But what is in their interest is to make this premise to Georgia totally sucked into Russian sphere of influence, economically and politically. Passing on the Russian passports was the first step and it started in 1996/1997 and we warned Russia and the UN that it would lead to another and further step of annexation. This next step occurred just a month ago by the presidential decree in which Putin announced that he was tasking the government to legalize their connection with the Abkhaz separatist regime. The separatist regime, which is, by the way, the perpetrator of the ethnical cleansing of 1992/1993. Then, there is this military build-up, which demonstrates that they want to secure the territory, which they are about to annex. All of this leads us to believe that Russian actions are far away from actions, which a mediator or a facilitator should undertake. International pressure, which is there - and we are very grateful to the European Union, individual members of the EU, the United States and other members of international community - voices strong support for Georgia’s integrity and the peace initiative of Georgian President. But then, again, there is a factor on the ground, which we have to encounter. We believe that Russia can and potentially has the significance in resolving this conflict and that’s why small countries like Georgia have to reach out to Russians to make them understand that Georgia’s integration with NATO is not a threat to them. In fact it is in Russian interest to have a stable southern border. We have a very bad experience of 1992/93, when Russia supported militarily the separatists and it hit them back in North Caucasus in Chechnya and other places. So I think that we believe that there is a common ground for Russians and Georgians to come together. And don’t forget about the Olympic Games. It is also another opportunity for both sides to work hard together to make this region stable.

SA: You mentioned ethnical cleansing. What is the status of human rights in Abkhazia right now? Should we interpret this ethnical cleansing in terms of genocide or merely as displacement of Georgian people from Abkhazia?

IA: It’s very interesting that a few days ago General Assembly of the UN adopted a resolution naming the atrocities that happened in 1992/93 in Abkhazia as ethnical cleansing. The devastating humanitarian situation still exists in Abkhazia in terms of Georgian returnees. More than 17% of the population, not only Georgian but people of other ethnic background as well, were cleansed from over there and the return never really succeeded. Right now, the UN is calling upon the member states to come up with a solid timetable of return, what of course should be accompanied by security guarantees. It will take time unfortunately and we need to be patient but the UN is really voicing up for the defense of the refugees. So what we are trying to do now is that the Secretary General was tasked to prepare a report, a progress report on how this return is going on and what should be done to make it more successful. There is another forum at the UN besides the Security Council and this is the General Assembly, which will be involved in this process.

SA: We recently witness the recognition of Kosovo’s independence. Aren’t you afraid that this precedent may be used against Georgia to recognize Abkhazia as an independent state?

IA: No, I totally dismiss this threat. These are two very difficult cases. But I will agree with you that Russia’s aggressive actions were at certain point based on this Kosovo’s incident because they really wanted to demonstrate to Western friends that Kosovo’s precedent can be used by Russia as a leverage on Georgia and post-Soviet states to dissuade them for their aspirations to join Euro-Atlantic community. So there is a lot of thinking behind it on Russian side that it is better for Georgia, it is better for the West to think twice before calling upon Georgia to become a member of the Euro-Atlantic community and of course it is a strong message to other post-Soviet states that if they want to follow the path of Georgia they could be punished. So there is, again, a strong need for actions of the West to make it very clear to Russia that we should come together to some kind of mutually acceptable result over here.

SA: Do you believe that Georgia-Russia relations can improve under the new Russian President Medvedev?

IA: I certainly hope so. I believe that the change of leadership over there will help and also that after the parliamentary elections in Georgia there will be more proactive government and parliament in Georgia as well. There is a chance to improve this relationship. As I mentioned, there are some common threats that exist in Caucasus that can be addressed by both sides to mutual benefit. I would say that there is a chance for improvement in the nearest future and I certainly hope that efforts made by Georgian side will be reciprocated by the Russian side.

SA: Aren’t you afraid that this dispute with Russia over Abkhazia will eventually decrease Georgia’s prospects of becoming a member of NATO because some of its members, for example Germany, will be afraid of being drawn into an open military conflict with Russia?

IA: I think that in Bucharest there was a strong message from the Alliance that Georgia and Ukraine will join NATO. It is a very strong commitment, as we understand, no matter of what kind of provocations the Russians were planting. A lot of pressure was put on Georgia and the Western countries to dissuade them from declaring such a strong message of Georgian and Ukrainian integration. Conflicts, of course, never help to do anything. Therefore it is in our best interest to persuade Russia that Georgia’s future in NATO is not threatening Russian future because Russia already has a boarder with NATO countries and I don’t think they feel more threatened now than they were years ago when they were against integration of the Baltic states and other Eastern European countries into NATO. The more stable their neighbors are, the more stable the region and Russians will be. So I think it is a main foreign policy task for Georgia to persuade Russia to be more cooperative, however we cannot do it alone and we need strong and continuing support from the West.

SA: What role the United State can and should play in this crisis?

IA: I think a central role because a lot depends on how the strategic dialogue between Russia and the United States will continue. Certainly for a past decade, I would say, Georgia has been a part of that strategic dialogue. We believe that the United States and Russia can accommodate each other and not on the expanse of Georgian or Ukrainian national security interests. And I know from my contacts with the United States’ government officials that they are using every chance and opportunity with their Russian colleagues to demonstrate that the Georgian-U.S. alliance and Georgia’s integration into NATO and Euro-Atlantic community will not threaten Russian interests.

Conducted on May 21, 2008 in Manhattan, New York City